Comments on Glock21 Op/Ed: War on Christmas!!!

I certainly think they're being ornery with the ad...

2008-11-13T15:03:00.000-06:00

I certainly think they're being ornery with the ads, but the goal is exposure. I doubt they believe there's a chance in hell a religious person will suddenly abandon god because they see this, and obviously that was not their intention. It is obnoxious enough to get viral exposure and people talking about it though.

The reactionary response by some is undoubtedly part of the ad campaign's objectives to further the exposure for free. The more people it riles up against it, the more of their target audience it hits: atheists, agnostics, and fence sitters who never heard of humanism but might find it appealing.

I'm sure, like most ads, they're obnoxious to some folks, and like almost every ad for a ideological group of any kind (political, religious, anti-religious, consumer advocacy, etc) are annoying towards groups ideologically opposed to them.

Your accusation of arrogance is based on a cherry-picked line to show a conclusion contradicted in the context. Yes they note that their ideology relies on reason and science... but, as they note, without reliance on ancient scripture and religious dogma to lead the way. There's no implication that religious people disregard all reason or science, just an implication that it isn't the foundation for their world view, which is accurate for most religions.

As far as the 'war on christmas' stuff, secularists and religious groups are both pushing from both ends of the divide. Sometimes they both go overboard in my opinion. While you may feel bad for the companies pushed towards the more inclusive 'happy holidays' line, somehow I doubt you can justify boycotts to hurt their business as helping them.

And as far as one side's point of view being more or less legitimate, I'm not sure how you're using the term legitimate. I obviously agree with one more than the other, but also support the right of both to express their point of view.

I just found the story interesting and thought it was fairly clever marketing for their group/movement... not to mention my own personal fascination with the endless cultural tensions between the religious traditionalists and the secular progressives, both here and in west generally.

*Get upset with the rhetoric about the War on Chri...

2008-11-13T13:13:00.000-06:00

*Get upset with the rhetoric about the War on Christmas

It's a little weird that you're taking this point ...

2008-11-13T13:09:00.000-06:00

It's a little weird that you're taking this point of view, Glock. These subway ads are as annoying as subway ads would be that said "Jesus loves you, find meaning in Jesus, etc." But the fact is there is no such thing, there are just those few annoying people on the street who pass out pamphlets.

I think people are annoyed by religious proselytizing and they're annoyed by atheist ad campaigns equally.

Most religious people aren't intolerant at all towards atheists and are probably more intolerant towards the evangelical nuts who take religion too seriously. They find in a religion a nice tradition a useful institution and a good way to introduce morals to their children.

The website for this group is arrogant and states "Humanists use reason and the tools of science to better understand our world and the best way to live in it." ---implying religious people don't use reason or science.

The critic's point of view that you cite is merely a criticism of the idea of moral relativism--he's saying that there must be some universal truth to what good is, it's not just what we decide it to be. Religious people think this truth is found through exploring the spiritual aspect of life, believing that you can't reduce goodness to material benefit or utilitarian philosophies--so look to the idea of God.

It's a point of disagreement. People are free to disagree on that. But its certainly not a viewpoint imposed on people in modern culture, except maybe some evangelical areas I have no experience with.

Why not acknowledge that this atheist group is being obnoxious, like some religious groups can be obnoxious? Instead you look at the criticism and get upset about the War on Christmas.

I don't agree with your take on some people objecting to how companies are starting to use "Happy Holidays" instead of referencing Christmas. The charge is that it doesn't make good business sense--because 95% or more of consumers in the United States are Christian. Instead, they say that companies are being pushed into doing this out of political correctness and the threat of lawsuits by groups such as this humanist organization over false claims that its discriminatory.

Do you agree with any of that? Is there too much political correctness around using religious language? Are there political groups that try to change govt practices through 'separation of church and state' grounds and corporate practices through discrimination lawsuits?

I don't care at all if these stores say 'Happy Holidays'. I'm not even religious myself.---I'm just curious as how you see there's a legitimate point of view on the part of atheist groups like this, and no legitimate point of view on the part of religious groups. They're just "projecting"?